H.001 - Heresy of False Brethren
As many Hebrew Roots adherents do, Tim and his family wrote saying that they do not believe ALL of the doctrines taught within the Hebrew Roots movement. They attempted to distance themselves from others in the movement and to present themselves as 'biblical Hebrew Roots Adherents'.
How well did they do?
Well, no different than "the others". They didn't answer any of the questions that I posed, or resolve any of the issues that I raised; and they claim that God's word has errors in it - while still claiming to believe in an unspecified "preserved" scripture.
Don't join them in their folly; but arm yourselves against other false brethren by considering their arguments and proving all things (I Thess 5:21):
From: [DELETED]
Sent: September-14-14 6:55 PM
To: mike
Subject: Re: Response to the Hebrew Roots Movement
Dear Mike,
Thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to answer our email. My family and I found it to be an interesting read.
Thank you again for your time.
Yah bless you and keep you and give you shalom!
Tim and family
On Tue, 9 Sep 2014 22:39:02 -0400 "HEBREW ROOTS" <mike@hebrewroots.ca> writes:
Ministry email:
Dear “One”, the mystery person.
Greetings; and thank you for taking time to write. I have typed my response to you in red, below.
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (I Thess 5:21)
Mike.
From:[DELETED]
Sent: September-09-14 9:50 AM
To: mike@hebrewroots.ca
Subject: Response to the Hebrew Roots Movement
Dear Mike,
This note matches up with the points in your document, so please have your document handy,
to read it along with this one.
REBUTTAL: The Roots of the Hebrew Roots Movement – Blow the Shofar – Sound the Alarm
1. Yes! I agree that the word of our Heavenly Father is the final authority. We need to look at all the scriptures to find our answers.
The first main problem here is that we must agree on what the “scriptures” are – or we will have no single authority to whom we can appeal together. That would be like playing a game of baseball and not agreeing on who the umpire is. One day we will. But presently we don’t – you mention “Torah”, for example (which is not in the scriptures). In English, the King James Bible is the only pure and perfect word of God. If you adhere to a Hebrew text, it is almost certainly a flawed text. But, I am willing and interested to hear whether and how you know you have a pure copy of God’s word in Hebrew – and in Greek.
2. I agree we must do what Matt 22:37-40 says, to love our Father in Heaven and His Son first, and our neighbor second. I agree one must teach the truth no matter the cost.
3. I am contacting you to let you know my family’s and my beliefs. Remember that a wolf can be disguised as a Christian minister, so be careful.
Thank you. I appreciate that; and you are certainly correct about wolves disguising themselves as Christians.
4. I can agree that some of the teachings may be evil, but I can apply this to Christianity as well; some of their key doctrines may be evil. It not only applies to Christians, but can apply to all people.
None of the doctrines of Christianity are evil. When you refer to Christianity, you may mean Baptist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, etc fellowships. I do not mean those. I mean true faith - the faith that the Lord Jesus Christ taught us in his word – the King James Bible in English. That faith leads people from all over the world into one body of truth – for there is One Lord, one faith, one baptism (Eph 4:5). Those who celebrate Christmas, for example, are not following Christ. Christmas may look “Christian” and sound “Christian”; but it isn’t. And that is one of many reasons why I took my wife and five children out of Pentecostal fellowships (as I would have removed them from many others as well) to follow what the bible actually teaches.
5. My family and I are not doing the Hebrew Roots because of Judah. It is because we want to be obedient to our Father in Heaven and do what is pleasing in His eyes, not Judah’s or man’s (I John 3:22).
I admire that greatly and acknowledged in the article that many leave denominational fellowships and join Hebrew Roots fellowships because they want to be obedient to God; and because HR teachers have misled them into believing that they will show them the better/best way to do that.
Many Jehovah’s Witnesses with whom I have conversed have come out of Catholicism when they were shown in Watchtower literature how that the Roman Catholic Church is evil. That is a perfect example of jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire – because both are evil; and the people are still under great deception. Those who have come out of so-called “Christian” denominations (hereinafter just called “denominations” or “fellowships”) and into Hebrew Roots fellowships are similarly still in great deception.
Through our studies we have been led by the Spirit to see that Christ did not do away with the Torah, but taught it more clearly. Christ taught against the Jewish tradition, which Judah was making more important than the written Torah (Matt 5:17-20).
I completely agree that Jesus did not come to “destroy the law”. What we need to resolve is what is meant each time “law” is mentioned – there are many references and several meanings in their respective contexts. The words have meaning; and we must believe exactly what it says – not make it say anything different than what it literally says. Hebrew Roots teachers habitually read a passage and then spend half an hour explaining how the passage does NOT mean exactly what it says. The Lord rebuke them.
IF we believe God’s word (and I do), then we must agree that – even though Jesus did not 'destroy' the law he did CHANGE the law - For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. (Heb 7:12)
IF we believe God’s word (and I do), then we must agree that believers in Christ are NOT UNDER the law - because if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. (Gal 5:18) And that is a good thing, because the law was weak (Rom 8:3) and it made nothing perfect (Heb 7:19)
So, we who believe in Christ are not under the law. It has no jurisdiction over us. We are not under the law, but under grace (Rom 6:14). That DOESN’T mean that we can live after the flesh – that would be turning the grace of God into lasciviousness. And it DOESN’T mean that we must still perform the rituals and sacrifices that Moses set forth either – that would be turning from faith in Christ and going back under the law. We can certainly CHOOSE to do that, if we want. But that would be a foolish decision, because no flesh shall be saved by the law – and anyone who turns away from the single sacrifice of Christ who died once for all, and then turns back to the keeping of the law himself/herself is a debtor to do the WHOLE law. And everyone who does so shall fail.
IF we believe God’s word (and I do), then we must agree that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. (Rom 10:4) THINK about that. We cannot become any more righteous by keeping Old Testament laws – because Christ is the END of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Those who say otherwise are Nicolaitans who want to rule over us – for neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. (Gal 6:13)
And IF we believe God’s word (and I do), then we must agree that Jesus DID ABOLISH something – he abolished “the law” of commandments contained in ordinances - Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace. (Eph 2:15)
Hebrew Roots teachers are very deceptive (or greatly ignorant, or both). They will say out of one side of their mouths that they are NOT teaching that keeping the law is necessary for SALVATION. They teach that keeping of the law is for OBEDIENCE out of love. And, because Jesus said that ‘if you love me you will keep my commandments’ then those teachers will say, ‘SEE, you have to keep all of the Old Testament commandments’. And if you are NOT keeping all of those commandments then you really aren’t saved. By going through this convoluted path, those teachers are now speaking out of the other side of their mouths and saying that “if you don’t keep the commandments, you are NOT SAVED” – the opposite of what they deceptively said at the beginning.
But, do we have to keep “the law” to be obedient…. and ultimately, to be saved? No. If we did, then no flesh would be saved. I am forever thankful that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8:2) ONE NEW LAW supercedes THE OLD LAW.
And finally, Paul made it clear that we are NOT PERFECTED by ‘keeping the law’ AFTER we are saved. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Gal 3:2-3) Clearly, we are not.
6. What I have found with talking with others who don’t believe the same is:
a. they don’t like the answer because it goes against what they have been taught.
I don’t care what I have been taught. I only care about the truth and following it/him. I have rejected many things – which is evident in that I forsook family and friends when I removed my family from our “Christian” denomination (after 33 years of fellowship)
b. They really don’t listen because they are waiting for a break in the conversation to give their opinion.
I always listen; as you can see that I am addressing your specific points too.
c. They don’t practice what James 1:19 says “quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger”.
I agree with you.
d. Most people just want to tell you you’re wrong and not really study it because they are correct and could never be deceived.
That is unfruitful – and lazy. Our eternal souls depend on knowing the truth and following the truth.
e. Most people just listen to their minister and don’t really prove what is being taught.
Not a problem here. Prove ALL things [including what you are telling me]; hold fast that which is good. (I Thess 5:21)
f. So here I am trying to answer your points in this paper. It is up to you to see if they are scriptural or not.
You can believe that I will.
7. You haven’t lost me yet! Be careful as to what you call false. Remember, when you point the finger, there are three pointing back at you.
Don’t take this offensively, but you remind me of my mother back 40 years ago – not that I ever pointed fingers, but she heard that expression in “church” and used it to deflect criticism over the years. But, I care more about what is true and not true than whose fingers are pointing which direction and how many fingers there are, and how many people are pointing. If I am wrong, I want to know. And, if I am right, then I will state the truth unapologetically – because that is what the Lord did, and requires of me.
7a. Don’t generalize. I don’t know you. I don’t know what you believe. I don’t know who has contacted you in the past, but that doesn’t matter. Treat the incidents as separate instead of lumping them together. This will help you to realize that having the same idea and applying it to all of Hebrew Roots people is generalizing too much.
That is possible – especially because there is such great division amongst Hebrew Roots fellowships. But there are certainly core beliefs common to all Hebrew Roots adherents. So, the flip side of your point is that none of us has enough time to learn ALL of the heresy in EVERY sect of the movement – and it ought to be sufficient to expose those that are predominantly common. (For example, I have identified your use of the word “Torah” – rather than “law”, supposedly.)
This exposes to me your commonality with HR adherents in mistaken understanding of what constitutes “scripture” (our FINAL authority) – with your reference to an unspecified Hebrew text as your final authority. In that, I am quite properly “lumping” you together with other Hebrew Roots adherents on probably the most important point of error.
So, if I show you one hole in the bottom of your boat, it is not beneficial for you to ignore the hole – or to deny the hole – and take me to other parts of YOUR BOAT and try to convince me that YOUR boat is still lovely and seaworthy. No. It shall eventually sink. And I am simply pointing that out.
As to breaking the Torah, what does the scripture say? I John 3:4. Doesn’t one practice sin if one says the Torah of our Heavenly Father and His Son has been done away with? Since that is how we know what sin is, sin is the transgression of the law (Torah) I John 3:4. Romans 6:23 – the wages of sin is death….
That is why I addressed the need for dealing with the word “law” in context. As mentioned above, obviously Jesus CHANGED the law. The law was WEAK. The law doesn’t save anyone. Yes, “the law” was abolished (Eph 2:15) – so you need to deal with that. We are no longer UNDER the law, etc. So, you have to deal with those clear facts – and not as how Hebrew Roots teachers habitually dismiss those facts.
Christ took away the penalty, which was eternal death, of the law (Torah), but He did not take away the law (Torah).
And, from my last comments, I waited until now to say here that this is one of those times, and one of those ways, in which Hebrew Roots teachers – and now you too (‘lumping’ yourself together with them, without my help) – dismiss the clear wording of scripture.
The word “penalty” and “penalties” are NO WHERE found in scripture. You have changed God’s word – by inserting the word “penalty” into the passage. You have changed the meaning of God’s word – by changing the words. You have violated God’s word by adding to it.
GOD said that he abolished the law of commandments contained in ordinances. Read it here: “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;” (Eph 2:15).
When you insert the word “penalty” into ANY scripture (because it isn’t there anywhere) then you change the structure of the grammar. For example, you make “law” no more the subject of the verb, but the object of the preposition “of”. It is no wonder then that the meaning of the verse changes. You change the words and then use it to support your beliefs. Or you change the words and then claim it doesn’t support mine. Well, of course it doesn’t – anymore – because you changed it. But God still supports my beliefs, and he still rejects those of HR adherents – because his word DOESN’T change, even when you try to make it change.
You added the word “penalty” (as Jim Staley and other HR teachers habitually do).
Read what God says about adding to his word: Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. (Prov 30:6)
7b. You say those in the Hebrew Roots movement ignore the New Testament, but the same is true with most Christians in that they ignore the Old Testament.
That is a broad-brush statement. You took my words out of context - I said they ignore the New Testament TO SAY THAT we have to consider the feasts as the FEASTS OF THE LORD. I said that, “Yes, I have heard your claims that these feasts are the "Feasts of the LORD" and are not "Jewish" feasts. In the OLD TESTAMENT that is true - they are the "Feasts of the LORD". But, your teachers are wrong in exclusively saying that. They ignore the NEW Testament to say that - which is ultimately one of their goals. They are Judaizers who are trying to bind me to keeping their Old Testament laws by saying that these feasts are the "Feasts of the LORD" - and by suggesting that I had therefore better keep those feasts, as commanded. And I go on in the next paragraph to prove how that they are NOT called the Feasts of the LORD in the New Testament.
Christians don’t ignore the Old Testament. All of it is God’s word. The Old Testament is the OLD Testament and it gives us the background of our faith. The New Testament is the NEW and BETTER Testament. So, when the NEW Testament doesn’t mention “the Feasts of the LORD” but only mentions the Feasts of the Jews, then we need to keep up with what God is telling us regarding feasts. God doesn’t require his body, the church, to keep the feasts – they are the Feasts OF THE JEWS.
The law (Torah) is not just of the Old Testament, but also of the New Testament.
II Tim 3:16 All scripture … To me, this means we use both Old and New Testaments, not one or the other. ALL!
Yes, absolutely, ALL scripture…..
So, when the NEW and BETTER Testament supercedes the OLD Testament then we understand the “shadow” of the past (OLD Testament) and implement the reality of the present (NEW Testament). You don’t believe that those of us in Christ are under the law of sin and death anymore, do you? For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8:2) So, “the law” has been superceded by a NEW law, right?
And, in the same way, Christ KEPT the OLD law, he SATISFIED the OLD law, he FULFILLED the OLD law – and we do the same IN HIM, by abiding in him and therefore loving one another – “for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.” (Rom 13:8)
THINK about that. I FULFILL the law by loving others.
The Feasts mentioned in Leviticus 23 were given to the people of our Father in Heaven.
The bible doesn’t say that the feasts were given to anyone but to the children of Israel and to their generations. Those were a SHADOW of things to come. The true reality, the true fulfillment, the true REST, is that rest that comes “IN CHRIST”, our rest.
What is the sign of His people? The SABBATH. Exodus 31:13, 17. It is FOREVER!
Signs are for Jews. Are you a Jew? For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: (I Cor 1:22)
Have you ever done ANY work on the Sabbath? If so – and I am sure that you have - according to verse 14 you shall be put to death.
Christ made us free from that. He is our rest.
Remember, the Ten Commandments are a part of the Torah.
The Ten Commandments do not say that we are to “keep” the Sabbath. The fourth Commandment says that we are to REMEMBER the Sabbath. And REMEMBERING the Sabbath is how we keep it holy. We REMEMBER it by understanding and teaching what the Sabbath means. The type and shadow of the past is fulfilled in Christ.
But, Hebrew Roots teachers don’t really read what the Ten Commandments say – they just demand adherence to them, as they interpret them. And they require believers to keep ALL of the laws of Moses – and I don’t mean the embellished oral/tradition ones – I mean all of the extra REAL laws of Moses. And that is impossible too. None of us can even keep the Ten Commandments. And Moses conveyed a lot of laws – besides the Ten Commandments.
For example, when you are away from home, do you take a poop paddle with you? (Deut 23:13) Do you kindle a fire in your home on cold winter Saturdays? (Ex 35:3) Do you work six days a week – EXACTLY SIX days, and EVERY week? (Ex 25:2) And you do NO work on Saturday at all – by biblical standards – NO WORK – EVER on Saturdays?
But, you want to PRETEND to the rest of us that you KEEP THE LAWS?? Or, you at least want to pretend that you are “doing your best”. No, you’re not. You can go to Jerusalem on the feasts. And you can follow a lot of these other laws too. But, they’re not convenient for you to follow; are they?
Matthew 26 tells us Christ and His disciples believe in the Passover and Unleavened Bread.
Certainly. That was before the gospel – the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Jesus had to fulfill the law. But, when Jesus died….read the words…. IN THE END OF THE SABBATH, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. (Matt 28:1) The King James Bible has AWESOME wording. And Jesus met with the disciples and did many other things on the first day of the week thereafter – as did Paul.
Paul traveled in order to keep the Feast of Pentecost.
You can’t jump from a true statement to an unsubstantiated conclusion.
Read the whole chapter. Paul left Priscilla and Aquila in Ephesus along with all of the believers there. And he left the church, the believers in Cæsarea and all the country of Galatia and Phrygia. WHY? If believers were to KEEP THE FEASTS, then
Paul should certainly have taken Aquila and the believing men with him to Jerusalem; right? But, why did he LEAVE them in Ephesus when the men were supposedly COMMANDED to appear for the feasts in Jerusalem? He should have compelled them to go with him.
But he didn’t.
He “left them” behind.
Because they were not required to go.
And Paul didn’t say here why he felt compelled to go himself either. But, it makes sense that he went to preach the gospel to the UNBELIEVING JEWS who were also headed for Jerusalem at that time to KEEP THEIR FEASTS. It was a great time and place to be to witness to UNBELIEVERS.
I believe we are to keep the Feast in Jerusalem, but because of circumstances beyond my control, Not true. You CAN go to Jerusalem, if you want to - even if there is no temple there. But you CHOOSE not to go – probably because of the cost, and the loss of income while away = money. I cannot keep them there, but that does not mean I should not try to simulate them. EVERYONE in the bible who ‘tried’ to keep the commandments in his/her own way died (think of Uzzah doing the ‘noble’ thing of steadying the ark; think of Aaron’s sons putting their own fire on the alter which the Lord had commanded them not) I try to the best of my ability to keep them. Not good enough. God requires PERFECT obedience to the law. If you offend in ONE point, you are guilty of all. If someone chooses not to do that, well, they have to answer to our Heavenly Father, the same as I do. I want to try to be obedient, and not just say, “Well, I can’t keep them in Jerusalem, so why bother?” For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:10)
7c. John, when speaking to pagan worshippers, called those days the “Feast of the Jews”.
Where in the NEW Testament, the BETTER Testament are they ever called the “Feasts of the LORD”?
Go back and read I Kings 11 and 12. You will find that the twelve tribes of Israel were split. I understand that. Ten tribes were given to Jeroboam to reign over them, and they were called Israel. Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, was given Judah only, but Judah was also given the city of Jerusalem. This was because of the promise made to David by our Heavenly Father (I Kings 11:12-13). I understand that.
Israel (Ten Tribes) did not do Torah and was taken captive and taken away by the Assyrians and replaced by pagan followers, II Kings 17:6, 18, 24. This is the short version. The pagans did not worship the true Heavenly Father, so they didn’t acknowledge Him. In John 5:1, John 6:4 and John 7:2, the Feast days were called the “Feast of the Jews”, not the Heavenly Father’s, even though originally the Feast days are the Heavenly Father’s Feasts.
You have to change the words to say that “originally” they were the Feasts of the LORD, so they are STILL the Feasts of the LORD. But, the New Testament never calls feasts the Feasts of the LORD.
So, are you going to believe what the scripture says in the New Testament, or are you going to change it so that it says Feasts of the LORD in the New Testament?
So knowing history and the culture of the time helps us understand the scriptures better.
No. To say that, you are saying that God is not capable of revealing to us his PURE and PERFECT word without EXTRA-biblical information. You are saying that God’s word is insufficient, inadequate, and even ineffective in FULLY conveying what he wants to convey to us, without the EXTRAS that you say we ALSO must have.
You are ADDING to the word of God. (Prov 30:6)
You are correct in that the Feast days are to be kept in Jerusalem, at the Temple and the altar. We know that because of Israel and Judah’s sin that the Temple was destroyed. Israel/Jews rejected Christ. So, Christ has rejected them. God allowed the temple to be destroyed for a reason. For almost two thousand years now it has been gone. God doesn’t live in temples made with hands – but in the hearts of men. The temple and the feasts were Old Testament types/shadows/figures of things to come.
To get back in the land, Israel (the Ten Tribes that were taken away) must show that they are willing to obey Torah. If we don’t show the willingness to obey Torah, why would He want to bring us back to the land?
There has been no temple for nearly 2,000 years.
You can’t “obey” the “Torah”. If you mean “the law”, you can’t obey that either. Peter said so. NO ONE can keep the law.
Remember Ezekiel 40-48 is all about the millennial kingdom, rebuilding the temple and doing all of the Torah. This includes the weekly Sabbath, the New Moon, and the daily sacrifices, along with the sacrifices done on the Feast days.
Chapter 40 begins a new vision. Those things were not in sequence.
The Apostle Paul made this clear: “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: (Col 2:16) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. (Col 2:17) THESE ARE A SHADOW of things to come.
My family and I try to the best of our ability to keep them (not good enough), not because they save us, but they help us to live a better life (Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Gal 3:2-3)), the way Christ lived His life,
Who was the only One to keep it perfectly, and we are to try and be perfect (Matt 5:48). For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:10)
Christ is the Reality of the Torah, but the reality does not do away with it. They both exist at the same time. When one walks outside on a sunny day, one is the reality, which cast the shadow, both exist. That is true; but you don’t embrace the shadow. When you go to meet your wife/husband at the train station after he/she has been gone for two weeks, and you see his/her shadow coming around the corner, you know he/she is just around the corner - the shadow is a sign of his/her coming and of better things. But when he/she comes around the corner, you embrace him/her. You do not embrace the shadow, or even give it a second thought. The Father does not do away with the Torah, He establishes it (Rom 3:31).
The Torah never saved anyone, it just defined what sin was (I John 3:4). Yes, sin is the transgression of the law. And the strength of sin is the law! (I Cor 15:56) Why would anyone in his right mind seek after something that strengthens sin? I am elated that I am FREE from THE LAW of sin and death!! It also gave us the promise of blessings from our Heavenly Father (Deut 28:1-15). In addition to that, there are many scriptures in the Old Testament that mention and/or point to a coming Messiah, whereas the New Testament is the account of that Messiah actually being born, dying, and rising from the dead. A few examples of Old Testament references of a coming Messiah are Gen 3:15; Leviticus 16; Psalms 110:1; Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 53; Leviticus 23 (the Feast Days picture the plan of God, beginning with Passover (and Christ’s sacrifice, Ex 12:21, I Cor 5:7), Days of Unleavened Bread (putting sin out of our lives), Pentecost (Christ returning for His Bride – no. Pentecost was the sealing of believers with the earnest of our inheritance. There is no pre-trib rapture. This is speculation, of course, but I get the feeling that you were Pentecostal; weren’t you? Many HR people are – and they are very much pre-trib too.) Feast of Trumpets (pictures the second coming of Messiah with His saints, Rev. 19:14), Day of Atonement (we become at one with our Heavenly Father), Feast of Tabernacles (the millennium – future), and the 8th Day (new heaven and new earth, Rev. 21:1). Yes, many of those other things are true. God certainly gave those types and shadows to us as pictures of the future reality.
My family and I keep these days listed in Leviticus 23 because it reminds us or helps us rehearse the plan of God, even though not all of the plan has been fulfilled.
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment. (Acts 15:24)
7d. So how does one’s righteousness exceed that of the Pharisees? 1. It is by believing in Christ and what His sacrifice did for us. Then believe in him and what his sacrifice did for us – and stop trying to be entangled again with the yoke of bondage. It allowed us to get back into threshold blood covenant with our Heavenly Father. 2. By trying to keep Torah, not by throwing it out. With the help of the Set-Apart Spirit, we can start to keep it with Christ living inside us. Remember, Christ kept it perfectly. It is Christ’s sacrifice that allows us to repent when we break Torah, to be forgiven, and to get back on the right path.
Christ is not telling the people to do what the scribes and Pharisees do, but tells them to do what Moses does, but because of a translation problem AHH….here we go. This is why I set the fundamental point of issue from the beginning. You DON’T believe the words of scripture. You believe God’s word has flaws in it. You believe that God wasn’t able to preserve his word for us, most people think that they are to do what the Pharisees do, but in essence we are to do what he (Moses) said.
7e. I have never called you or anyone who may believe the same way you do a Pharisee. But by generalizing, you have lumped my family and me in with your idea of what you think the Hebraic movement is.
I use the King James and New American Standard Bibles There we go. You “use” both the truth and “error”. That is no wonder – given your confusion (which God did not author). But what matters is what you “believe”. And you don’t “BELIEVE” God’s word, the King James Bible. Which is your FINAL authority? The two don’t agree., but I also admit that there can be translation problems. Not in the King James Bible there aren’t. Examples are Matt 19:24, Mark 10:25, Luke 18:25. Interesting how that you think that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and/or God and the King James translators got it wrong. Who got it right? What’s the RIGHT translation? What is your FINAL authority? How do you know?
The word they get “camel” is from Aramaic “gomla”, but when translated to Greek, it was mistranslated. Says who? In Greek “camel” is spelled kamelos, and “rope” in Greek is spelled kamilos. As you can see, there is one letter different. I believe There you go – you ‘believe’. You DON’T believe the WORDS in the Bible. You BELIEVE yourself – or more precisely, you believe A MAN who told you that the word of God has errors in it the word should have been “rope” and not “camel”, because “rope” makes more sense. I used this example because it was easy. You teach on using the King James Version and that is fine, but I also use NAS version and e-sword.
I don’t doubt that you do.
A double minded man is unstable in all of his ways. (James 1:8) And anyone who “uses” conflicting copies of what he “believes” to be God’s word obviously has a problem.
God doesn’t contradict himself. You need to resolve this issue about FINAL authority – or you will remain double minded and tossed to and fro by every unbelieving “bible scholar” who comes along and tells you that God’s word has errors in it.
I cite this example because it is referred to in the King James Version, the very same translation you claim to use, showing that there just isn’t a final authority that is error-free.
Now wait a second. You didn’t prove that the King James Bible has an error. Think about it. You merely took some unbelieving man’s statements about the translation of camels and ropes from a foreign tongue.
Do you really think that the translators of the King James Bible were that stupid?
Do you really think that the man who you have come to believe (and the “scholars/translators” from whom he got his unbelief) knows more about those words and about their translation?
More importantly, do you REALLY believe that God has not been able to give us his pure and perfect word – as he PROMISED to do? Is God a liar? That’s what you are calling him.
And by saying "there just isn't a final authority that is error-free" YOU are presuming to be the final authority YOURSELF - sitting in judgment of God's word, the King James Bible, and of all other texts, and judging ALL of them to be in error - but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. (James 4:11)
7f. You call the Hebrew Roots teaching “ungodly”. Yes, I do, because it is. Does this mean you believe all Christian ministers are godly? Of course not. That is non-sequitur. Again, you generalize! Not improperly, I haven’t. The Hebrew Roots teaching IS ungodly. And your belief that the King James Bible has errors in it is one of the Hebrew Roots’ teachings, at least, that you have adopted in which I have correctly ‘lumped’ you together with them in their erroneous teachings.
When I listen to a man speak on the scriptures, I determine if what he is saying is really from the scriptures You don’t know what “the scriptures” are. You just told me that you “use” the King James Bible, AND the New American Standard (which contradict each other), AND that you believe some scholars whom you call “they”. But you haven’t told me what you BELIEVE to be the scriptures, and if so, I am fine with that. When he starts to bring in what he thinks or believes, then one needs to be careful as to what the minister says. We have to use all the scriptures, Old and New Testament, not one or the other. I do use ALL of the scriptures. And there is no contradiction between them in my final authority, in my scriptures, in God’s word – the King James Bible.
I have never read the Greek manuscript from Alexandria via Westcott and Hart [sic], so I really don’t know what you’re talking about, nor care to. Well, that is partly why you have a problem – not that you haven’t read it, but that you use (and at least partly believe) a book derived from it (NAS). You and your family are in great danger because of your ignorance (“I really don’t know what you are talking about”) and of your apathy (“nor care to”).
You reject the words of truth, and you believe MEN who tell you that those words of truth are NOT TRUE – (they ‘have errors’).
It seems to me from all that you have talked about so far, you have not objectively researched the ROOTS of the Hebrew Roots movement historically or scripturally, but only by your biased ideology. Wow, what an unfounded assertion. You have no idea. In fact, I have researched the movement from the teachings and writings of as many of the acclaimed leaders of the movement that I can find – directly from the horses’ mouths, so to speak.
7f(1). Yes, I agree with you here somewhat. The Rabbis weren’t appointed, but took it upon themselves to take over teaching the Torah (law), and adding in their traditions. Judah was the only one who was in Babylon, not Israel (the Ten Tribes). A good book to read by Daniel Gruber is Rabbi Akiba’s Messiah: The Origin of Rabbinic Authority. How about this good book to read – the “King James Bible”, by our Creator, God - in which God himself, in the flesh, said be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren (Matt 23:8) Have you considered his thoughts on this matter? Do you agree with Jesus that no man is to be called “Rabbi”?
7f(2). I agree with you, but remember, they teach that their oral traditions outrank the written Torah (which is wrong to do), but it is also wrong to throw out the written Torah because one doesn’t like what the Rabbis do. So you DO call men “Rabbis”. So…..you don’t know what Jesus said? You disagree with Jesus? You reject what Jesus said? Where are you on this issue?
The Rabbis and the Pope both do the same thing. They want you to have to go to them. It is all about power and control. Yes. They are all Nicolaitans – as are the Hebrew Roots teachers who want to interpret God’s word for us from the Hebrew and Greek.
7f(3). I don’t really know much about Jim Staley, so I will stay away from writing anything about this. Okay, so where did you get your “Hebrew Roots” doctrines? Don’t bother telling me that you got them from the bible. You and I both know that isn’t true. SOMEONE led you into the Hebrew Roots teachings.
7f(4). Again, I agree as to what you have said, but I believe you’re mixing the oral teaching with the written teaching (Torah). They are different. The oral Torah is of man, the written Torah is from our Heavenly Father. I understand your argument. But, just like the Judaizers of the past, the Hebrew Roots teachers teach the oral teachings and traditions AS IF they were what the written teachings REALLY MEANT to teach. You do the same – with your shell game of word changes and re-translations (penalty/camels/ropes/etc).
In the end, there will be those of us who BELIEVE the words, and those of us/you who say that the words are erroneous.
I would rather be in my shoes on judgment day than in your shoes.
And, I would most rather that you change your beliefs and start believing the written words of scripture rather than believing the oral words of men who say that the written words of scripture are wrong.
I don’t believe one is required to keep the oral Torah (teaching of man), but one is required to keep the written in order to be obedient to our Heavenly Father and receive blessings (Deut 28 and 30). You change the written text whenever you don’t agree with the wording of it – based on what some man told you. So, you are already rejecting the written word and keeping the oral teachings of men.
You need to seriously think about that.
7f(5). First of all, I don’t follow the Jew’s writings. I follow the written Torah which was given to all of Israel, not just the Jews. REALLY? What’s it called? Where can I get a copy of it? Which version of the Hebrew does it come from? The Jews are just one tribe of Israel, but remember they are also Hebrews. That is why I call it the Hebrew movement and not the Jewish movement. I believe there is a difference. Sure. And do you believe that God spoke Hebrew to Adam and Noah?
7g. I don’t know who “you” is. So let’s stop generalizing. There’s nothing wrong with generalizing when all of you believe in the same errors. Like I said above, I don’t need to show you 613 holes in your boat to prove that you have a problem (metaphorically speaking), with your theology sinking. I only need to show you “one”. I don’t know for sure which Torah (oral or written) you are talking about because you mix the two. They are totally different from each other. I simply quote what I am told by HR leaders that it means - “Torah” – a term that I completely reject in the first place. You read Acts 15 and tell me where it says “Torah” and which “Torah” you would like it to refer to, when the disciples rejected the doctrines of the Judaizers of their day.
In Acts 15, Paul is dealing with circumcision, and that it was needed for salvation. Now come on. You know better than that. You know full well what they were dealing with: “That it was needful to circumcise them, AND TO COMMAND THEM TO KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES.” Which “Torah” is that??
It wasn’t just circumcision.
You also know that the issue was repeated and further clarified in the letters reflecting the comments of James when they wrote to the new Gentile believers: “Ye must be circumcised, AND KEEP THE LAW: to whom we gave no such commandment:” The Torah never says that. In fact, the Torah was never given for salvation (Acts 15:24). The Torah has to do with defining sin and receiving blessings, not obtaining salvation through keeping it (I John 3:4, and Deut 28). Circumcision won’t save us either. New Testament circumcision will.
If you read Acts 15 closely, I have – frequently, and thoroughly you will see that Paul tells them they need to believe in Christ (Acts 15:11), I see that Peter was speaking in Acts 15:11 – not Paul – because I have “read Acts closely” then on the Sabbath day (when the Torah of Moses was taught), they would learn the Torah and as they learned the Torah, they would keep what applied to them (Acts 15:21). Nope. You have swallowed the heresies of the Hebrew Roots teachers hook, line, and sinker.
You need to do a bible study on the word “synagogue” and recognize that it is NOT a good place.
And you need to read the whole chapter of Acts 15 – and NOT IGNORE all the references to “yoke”, “burden”, “trouble”, “subvert”, and “gave no such commandment”, etc. NONE of the commandments being addressed (‘command them to keep THE LAW OF MOSES’) were endorsed by the disciples.
And THEN you might see how that Acts 15:21 does NOT say that new gentile believers need to go to the (evil) synagogue to learn the (yoke/bondage/etc) of the Law of Moses. Rather, you will see that James is WARNING everyone, in Acts 15:21 that Judaizers are in every city reading Moses in the synagogues. So he recommends that the Apostles write to comfort the new believers who have been ‘troubled’ and to tell them that they will do well (fare well) if they just abstain from the four harmful things.
Our Heavenly Father wants His people to be obedient, and not rebellious. That is absolutely true. It seems to me that by saying the written Torah is done away with, that’s what people are doing, rebelling against our Heavenly Father. No. You just need to believe ALL of the bible; not just part of it. When the New Testament says that something is ‘abolished’ or ‘done away’, etc, then simply believe that it has been ‘abolished’ or ‘done away’. When it says that Jesus FULFILLED the law, don’t make it sound like Christians believe he threw everything out. Why is it so hard to understand? He fulfilled it. So it is now superceded with a BETTER Testament, the NEW Testament. The OLD is still available for you or any of your Hebrew Roots friends to be entangled again with the “yoke of bondage”, if you wish. He hasn’t abolished it from you. Go for it – if you really want to. BUT BE SURE TO KEEP ALL OF IT!! (see James again).
Look. The Children of Israel/Jews/Hebrews got it wrong before – they even crucified Christ – so don’t go looking to them for light and understanding now. They are STILL wrong. They are STILL blind. They are STILL enemies of the gospel.
Paul warns us that their minds are blinded – and so are yours, if you buy into their belief (the blind leading the blind). Read it for yourself: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. (II Cor 3:14-15)
SO, think about that. IF the new gentile believers were being told to go to the synagogues to hear about Moses, then they would have been going to get understanding about the scriptures from people (the “children of Israel” = supposedly “YOU”) who have blinded minds and a vail on their hearts whenever they read Moses!!!
SO, it is absurd to think that even Acts 15:21 supports the twisted Hebrew Roots doctrines. It doesn’t. Like all of the other verses in Acts 15, verse 21 WARNS gentile believers against the Judaizing Hebrew Roots doctrines, AND against synagogues.
7h. I believe, but I’m not sure, that you know what is listed in Acts 15:20 are found in the Torah Gen 9:4, Lev 3:7; 7:26, 17:10-14; 19:20, but to abstain from things contaminated from idols is found in Dan 1:8. The new gentile believers were simply being instructed on how to “fare ye well”. The truths of abstaining from these things in no way suggests that the Apostles wanted the new gentile believers to be entangled with the yoke of bondage. Read about Sarah and Hagar – the freewoman and the bondwoman, the promise and the law. All of that pertains to our freedom in Christ – free from the law!!
The apostles weren’t necessarily telling them not to do Torah, but they would learn Torah every Sabbath in the synagogue. No. James was warning them about the Judaizers in the synagogues who were commanding the same things as those who started this problem in the first place – trying to subvert the souls of the new believers. (as proven above).
It also seems to me in Acts 15:21 that Paul was telling them to keep the Sabbath. Paul wasn’t speaking in Acts 15:21 – James was speaking. And James knew that the weekly Sabbath was not above any other day, in Christ.
If I understood you, even Peter and Paul who were flesh and blood, had weaknesses just like we all do, and had trouble keeping the Torah perfectly; only Christ has, but that we should throw out our Heavenly Father’s Torah because then one can justify what one does and not feel guilty.
7i. I believe you’re being misleading because Paul says faith established the law Rom 3:31. Sorry, my 7i has a lot of good questions that you haven’t answered – and I don’t understand what any of them have to do with Paul’s comment about establishing the law.
Yes, my family and I use the name “Yeshua” because we have proven to ourselves that that is His name. If you want to use “Jesus,” that is your choice. What you have proven is that you don’t believe the scriptures. In reference to the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, the scriptures say that there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:12) It has nothing to do with my “choice” of what name to call him. What is your FINAL authority by which cause you have rejected this scripture?
When you generalize, it confuses me. The word “Judaizer” to me means someone who follows the oral torah. It shouldn’t confuse you. A Judaizer (look at the root word) is simply one who moves people towards believing in and practicing the religion of the Jews – celebrating the Jews’ feast (John 7:2), the Jews’ passover (John 11:55), and the Jews’ religion (Gal 1:14), etc.
I don’t believe one can say that the oral torah is the same as the written, so most of the time I’m not sure which one you are talking about. I have never said that the written laws of Moses and the embellished oral commandments of men that followed are the same things. You are pretending to be confused so as to ignore the clear cut passages that refute your beliefs – many of which I have already cited and MANY more which you can easily find yourself.
The King James is a very good translation, but it is not perfect. You and God disagree on this. So, for your sake and for that of your family, I suggest you find a way to change your opinion as soon as possible. Some words are mistranslated, even phrases, but if you’re not familiar with Torah, it is hard to see them. Look up the edicts of King James. I have studied this issue thoroughly – for years; even decades. If you really care about your family, then look into it yourself. I am willing to go with you step-by-step if that is really necessary. Without faith it is impossible to please God. If you approach his word BELIEVING IT TO BE UNTRUE then you will never know the truth. But, if you reject the statements of unbelief you have adopted from unbelieving puffed up men, and you ask the Lord to show you the truth about this matter, then he will show you AWESOME things from the King James Bible.
Start from a clean sheet of paper and believe the words of God in the King James Bible. Now, address the first objection that someone has raised – ONE so-called “error”. Believe the bible about it, and look for the error in the man’s argument.
I can help.
What is the first objection?
7j. Don’t mislead people here. I’m not. You need to go to the end of the chapter. Paul says it is by faith we establish the law (Torah). Now, don’t you mislead people here. Just go back three verses and look at the conclusion again: “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW.” If a man is “JUSTIFIED”, he is guiltless. He is accounted to be without sin. It is imputed unto him for righteousness. You can’t improve upon that with works. Remember Galatians: Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Gal 3:2-3)
Acts 26:20 – “…they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.” The verse actually says, “But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.” This is simply saying that believers will do that which is right – that which is consistent with repentance. This says nothing about going back under the law, entangled again with the yoke of bondage, and carrying a poop paddle.
Matt 3:8, “Therefore bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance.”
Luke 3:8, “Therefore bring forth fruits in keeping with repentance…”
This is what the Torah is for—not salvation, but to know what sin is (Rom 3:20). Sin is the transgression of the law. If you want to go back under the Old Covenant and try to keep ALL of the laws, then go for it. We have a right to reject the offer on the table (the NEW Covenant, the BETTER Testament). But, if you don’t like the NEW Covenant, then go ahead and sign up for the old one. It’s a free choice.
I know what sin is. That is why I am delighted to be free from the law of sin and death – by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus – and am not under the law.
The Torah brings us to repentance and the forgiveness of sin, but it is Christ’s sacrifice that washes us and takes that sin completely away, and takes the penalty of death away.
It does not take away the law, but its penalty; it is through Christ’s death and resurrection that we have eternal life. And “faith without works is dead, being alone” (James 2:17). I understand these teachings. A lot of this is true. And the HR teachings in general are very close to the truth. That is why they are so dangerously deceptive.
7k. The word “schoolmaster” in Gal. 3:24 does not mean “teacher,” but a tutor, attendant, or custodian, which usually meant one’s job was to ensure the safe arrival of a child to school. That is what the Torah did. It brought us to the true teacher, Christ. Just because it brought us to Christ doesn’t mean it was done away with. Just like the custodian that brought the child to school was not done away with once the child arrived at school. Well, words have meaning. But keep reading. The next verse says: But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. So, we are no longer under the law. You can twist this however you want, but, the end result is that we are NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW. It doesn’t say “penalty” of the law or “curse” of the law. It says we are no longer under THE LAW.
So the Torah is not done away with, but as we’ve learned it, it becomes a part of us and has helped us to see who the true teacher is, and it helps us live a life worthy of repentance because we know what sin is, and we can repent. Of course the law is still in effect – to all who are under it. And, if you want to be under it, like I said, go ahead.
It is through faith in Christ that we can have true repentance and acceptance by our Heavenly Father. It is not faith in the finished work of Christ to repent and then try to become perfected by “keeping the law” (works of the flesh). Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Gal 3:2-3)
7l. That’s the difference. You believe the law (Torah) has been done away with. I didn’t say that. What I said is that I am not UNDER the law. I am certainly not under the law of commandments contained in ordinances. You may well be. And your family may well be. That is your choice. And that is sad. I feel especially bad for them – because they trust you and are following you – the blind leading the blind (II Cor 3:14). Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Gal 3:2-3) My family and I believe it never left.
Christ is the only One Who was able to keep the law perfectly, but He kept it. So don’t you think we should try to keep the law (Torah) that Christ kept? No, we are to rest from our works, in him; trusting his finished work on the cross. Was Christ not our example to follow? Do we keep it perfectly? NO! Should we try? YES! (Matt 5:48). But all their works they do for to be seen of men…and love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues…and greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi…But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. (Matt 23:5-12)
Remember Matt 5:17-20. Christ said if one teaches the least of the commandments (Torah) are done away, will be least in the kingdom, but whoever keeps and teaches it shall be called great (Christ’s words, not mine).
7m. You are right. The law does not justify. The law teaches us what sin is. Our Heavenly Father hates sin. He is the One Who defines sin. The law is a guideline to live a life that leads to life. Man’s way without Him, which is rebelling against the law (Torah) that He gave us, leads to death. By not living by Torah we lead a life unto death (Rom. 6:23). “Torah” is not in the bible. If you mean “law”, then you are not keeping the law anyway. You must keep ALL of it, if you try. So, if ‘not living by the law leads us to death’ then you are headed for death – and that is where I believe your doctrines are leading you.
7n. I believe Matt 24:4-5 can also be talking about Christian ministers. They say they are ministers of Christ, but don’t teach what He taught. Christ lived and kept Torah. If He had not kept Torah, He would have sinned and would not have been our Savior. You are not keeping the law. (Okay; you are not keeping “Torah”.) You are failing. Trying is not good enough. God demands that those under the law keep ALL of it. God’s only standard is perfection.
So why is it that men and women say they follow Christ, but yet don’t want to try to live a perfect life like Him? (Matt 5:48). If Christ knew that by breaking Torah was sin, then why would one want to do away with it, and live in sin? You keep arguing against what Christians DON’T believe. At best, that is a straw man argument. And, in any case, it is a waste of time.
The only reason I can see is that they don’t want to be accountable for breaking Torah, so they do away with it. It is easier to break it, just like the Pharisees did, than it is to keep it.
So to me, one is not following Christ if he doesn’t want the Torah in his life.
7o. Again, a misleading statement. The Torah doesn’t save us. The Torah doesn’t justify us. The Torah is a guide to help us see when we sin, so that we can repent and have the blood of Christ cleanse us. If we don’t know what sin is, then what do we have to repent of? Paul said that where there is no law, there is no sin (Rom 4:15). YES – Paul is right! for where no law is, there is no transgression. You want to be under the law – so you have opted for the Old Testament/Covenant of the law. I DON’T want to be under the law – so I have opted for the New Testament/Covenant of grace. So, you transgress the law; and I don’t. Which of us, therefore, shall be saved? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Gal 3:2-3)
So it seems to me that if one does away with the Torah, then there is no sin and one doesn’t have to be accountable for sinning.
Sin is defined by the Torah (I John 3:4). So this doesn’t rip the heart out of the Hebrew Roots movement. Only your ideology does that.
8. Misleading again. What was nailed to the stake? Stake? Do you believe the Watchtower heresy that Jesus was crucified on a stake and not on a cross? For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (I Cor 1:18) To answer your question – he abolished the law of commandments contained in ordinances, Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (Col 2:14)
Not the law, but the penalty of the law, which was death. Rom 6:23 Nope. There you go again – changing God’s word; changing the grammar of the verse even, adding words to God’s word. Take heed. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. (Prov 30:6)
Christ’s sacrifice took the death penalty away, but He also tells us to sin no more (John 5:14, 8:11), just like he told the blind beggar, and the woman caught in adultery. So without Torah, we don’t know what sin is.
That is an absurd conclusion. Paul said, I had not known sin, but by the law. (Rom 7:7) That’s past perfect tense, my friend. Come on. Learn some English grammar. It doesn’t say that we, all of a sudden, don’t know or understand or recognize what sin is anymore – after we are in Christ. What bizarre conclusions you have. But, that is because:
a. You chose to receive not the love of the truth. You rejected the words of truth – and claim that God’s word has errors in it. And God doesn’t make a habit of revealing his truth to those who say that he makes errors.
b. You follow men whose minds are blinded.
c. You follow men who have a vail over their hearts whenever Moses is read.
And, if that wasn’t enough, you effectively ignored the preceding verse which says, “But now we are delivered from the law”. We (those who actually believe the words) ARE DELIVERED from THE LAW.
In Col. 2:16-17, to whom is Paul talking? Gentile pagan worshippers who were keeping other days and eating unclean meats. You are just full of one false conclusion after another; aren’t you? No, Paul was not talking to “pagan worshippers”. Read the text, my friend, and BELIEVE the words!! Paul was writing “To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse.” (Col 1:2). SAINTS and FAITHFUL BRETHREN - NOT "pagan worshippers".
Now, I realize that those facts don’t help to support the corrupted doctrines of your Hebrew Roots gurus; but they are the biblical facts. And if you ever want to know the truth, you will have to believe those words as the truth that they are.
They were converting to what was being taught from the Old Testament, because that is what Christ taught from. At this time there was no New Testament yet. Oh yes; the well-worn Hebrew Roots argument of who’s on first. I have listened to your foolish teachers ad infinitum. And, if you would do the same, then you could start collecting some of the ridiculous arguments that I have collected from them too. To hear them use this argument of yours, NO ONE wrote the New Testament, because everyone was waiting for everyone else to write first!! Peter waited for Paul. Paul waited for Luke. Luke waited for John. And everyone waited for Matthew. Maybe. Maybe not. Well, maybe. Then again, maybe not.
Paul was telling them to not let your pagan friends and family judge you from changing to a better way of life by keeping the Torah of the true God, our Heavenly Father, which was a better way of life. That is an absolutely absurd conclusion – which I have heard now for years from you people (YES, I’m lumping all of you together – appropriately – because you all have the same foolish thinking and use the same foolish arguments):
a. Firstly, because Paul was writing to SAINTS and FAITHFUL BRETHREN – as the text says – and NOT to “pagan worshippers”.
b. Secondly, because IF you would care to read the text (CLOSELY, I might add – as according to your own advice), you would find that the passage, in context, makes NO SENSE when one reads it from the perspective that the hearers are being ENCOURAGED in these matters (keeping of holydays, new moons, sabbath days, etc). And it makes PERFECT SENSE when one reads it from the perspective that the hearers are being DISCOURAGED in these matters. If you are able to follow through with the flow of the passage, Paul is speaking AGAINST Old Testament circumcision of the flesh in favour of NEW Testament circumcision of Christ, without hands. And he says that Jesus took such old things - the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.
He WOULDN’T have taken those things out of the way so that we could be encouraged to CONTINUE keeping them.
But he WOULD have taken them out of the way so that we would be FREE from them and NOT HAVE TO keep them.
Paul told them that this was coming (Col. 2:17), a shadow of things to come. They were going to be persecuted for keeping the Sabbath, New Moon, and not eating certain foods which Lev. 11 tells us are unclean. It amazes me that supposedly rational people can think through what I just said – as the text of scripture reads – and come to the completely opposite conclusion, in the absence of all logic, understanding, and light of scripture.
If you care to study it, the doctrine of “commanding to abstain from meats” in which you profess to believe just happens to be one of the “doctrines of devils” – according to the Apostle Paul – that will be manifest here in the latter times. (I Tim 4:1-4)
9. You are correct. I don’t let anyone judge me for keeping the days that our Heavenly Father gave us. Error – misreading the text. In fact, that is what Paul is telling the pagan converts. Error again – blatantly misreading the text - SAINTS and FAITHFUL BRETHREN. They were going to start keeping them and living the way that the Heavenly Father (the only true God), wanted, so don’t let the old pagan friends judge you in your new way of life. Error – and absurd, in the context.
The Torah wasn’t blotted out on the stake, but the eternal death penalty was. No “Torah”. No “stake”. No “penalty” anywhere in scripture; and you’re inserting words (stake/penalty) into the passage – thereby changing the words AND meaning. (Have you considered writing for the Watchtower?)
Men and women are misled that the Torah was done away with, and is taken away (which tells us what sin is). Remember, where there is no law, there is no transgression. So by taking away the law, men and woman can do what they want and not feel guilty.
It is our Heavenly Father Who defines what sin is, not man. Good point. So, let’s believe what he says – that sin is transgression of the law. And then let’s apply that principle (believing what he says) to all other passages of scripture too.
So the Feast days and the Sabbath are important, just like the rest of the Torah that applies to each man or woman. Be careful in calling our Heavenly Father’s Sabbath and Feast days “irrelevant.”
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: (Col 2:16)
10. So using your own words, “The Heavenly Father is ‘the final authority.’” Will you accept it? Or will you trust in man – who redefines words (look who’s talking) and allegorizes (look who’s talking) and adds and subtracts (look who’s talking) and substitutes (look who’s talking) and changes (look who’s talking) the preserved PRESERVED??? word of God until it says what you want it to say? YOU DON’T BELIEVE HE PRESERVED IT. YOU TOLD ME IT HAS ERRORS IN IT.
“He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day,” (John 12:48). YES. His word is the FINAL authority. So, you’d better read it and start to believe it – and not sit in judgment of it and say it has errors. “So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ” (Rom 10:17). Close – “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Rom 10:17)
I am writing this because I believe that not all Hebrew Roots movements are the same, just like in Christianity. Thanks for writing. I never said they were all the same in every doctrine. But, they are all the same in that they are all heretical, unscriptural, destroying lives and families and leading multitudes to eternal damnation. I pray this will shed a different light on what you think the Hebrew Roots movement is about. You have proven my points over and over and over again. You are a great example of what damage the movement does to people and to families.
I pray that you have found this to be an interesting read. Yes; but also very sad indeed.
Signed,
One who tries to obey
You proudly PRETEND to obey – when you know that you could do much more to “try”. But you will always fail to meet the standard of perfection that God requires – and so, you shall be guilty of all (James 2:10).
But, I pray that you will repent.
Mike
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